Kathy, Are you using the IF-AT forms for the TRATs? That is the one thing that has consistently cured "problem children" of their attitudes in my classes over the last 8 or so years of using TBL. Scott -- Scott D. Zimmerman, PhD Biomedical Sciences Department Missouri State University Springfield, MO 65897 (417) 836-6123 Fax (417) 836-5588 The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd... Bertrand Russell