My RATs are pretty simple. If someone reads the material twice: first casually, then for detail, they can do quite well. I always get some scores of 10 out of 10, so someone can do them. If I lectured, I would tell them the answers during lecture and there would be no reason to read. The RATS are to assess what they have read, not what I have told them. I give the chance to ask questions before the RAT. If they have done the readings, ask good questions, they do better. If they haven't done the readings and don't understand the questions, it probably doesn't help much. If someone asks a question that I have put on a RAT, I tell them the answer. It's not a big deal and I go on. Most students do better on the RATs as a result of questions, but not all. I notice that when there are a lot of questions then they do better. They are often just lazy. I am regularly asked to lecture more. This is a hidden code. They want you to tell them what is important, so they can limit their responsibility for learning to those things, then do part of it or do it poorly, then complain when you ask an exam question that wasn't "covered" in the lecture. Students learn this behavior early and, from a behavioral perspective, are strongly rewarded for it. When you don't conform with these social norms, you are swimming upstream. Statistics is about students doing things, not about me telling them things. More lectures aren't the answer. More doing things by students is the answer. This is a conclusion that most of the math and statistics community has come to over the last 15 years. Check the Calculus Reform movement. When I am firm but friendly, they get the idea. They are responsible for all the readings before class. None of this makes anyone happy. It makes them learn. Sometimes they don't get the idea until after the first exam, so I schedule three exams a semester to give them a break. As an aside: All my students are graduate students. We tend to blame their learned dependency on undergraduate school habits. I've discovered that teachers there tend to blame poor habits on high school. However, I don't ask any of them to show any responsibility that I didn't learn in high school. (Particularly the part about reading assignments before the due dates.) Where does the fault lie? Partly in human nature, partly in learned attitudes and behavior. It can't possibly come from any single place or experience. Anyway, this is my more cynical view of life and teaching. The role of RATs helps me focus on the responsibility for doing the readings on time. It belongs to the student. If you want people to learn on their own, you have to give them a guide and turn them loose. Reward the ones who respond to this. Give some boosts and hints to everyone else, but expect them to do things on their own. If we don't tell people exactly what we want (if only implicitly by our lecturing) they can learn amazing amounts, much more than I ever would have expected. This is the rewarding part. Regards, David Smith David W. Smith, Ph.D., M.P.H. Associate Professor, Biostatistics The University of Texas School of Public Health San Antonio Branch Campus voice: (210) 562-5512 e-mail: [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Team Learning Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Christine Porter Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:08 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: A couple of questions Isn't the point of the Readiness Assessment Test to have the kids learn the stuff first so they can get more in depth with lectures and projects? Sounds like a bunch of lazy kids who don't like to think....hey...they sound like my kids. :) They are so used to just having things spoon fed to them I think and aren't used to actively having to learn the stuff on their own. It's hard to say if your RATs are too hard or they're not trying yet or buying into the process yet. My two cents. Good luck. Chris Porter Director of Bands Brooklyn Center High School [log in to unmask] 763-561-2120 x2602 >>> "Kubitz, Karla" <[log in to unmask]> 10/19/04 12:32 PM >>> Hello TBL colleagues, I've a couple of questions that I'd like to put out there for some feedback. First, how do you tell whether your RATs are too hard? My students have been averaging about 66-67% on their individual RATs and about 93-94% on their team RATs. That's across three classes and across 4 RATs so far this semester. Does that sound like they're too hard? Second, I just did a class session to look at team processes (along the lines of the one suggested in Michaelsen's book) where you ask the teams what behaviors have helped, hurt, etc. I also included the question about what the instructor could do to make the class better. In both of my classes, I got the suggestion to lecture before the RATs instead of after. Any suggestions on how to respond to the classes about this suggestion? Karla